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Old 07-09-2014, 11:00 PM   #11
BigDawgsByte
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This (via dilbert.com of course)

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Old 07-09-2014, 11:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHarryReems View Post
While most don't dispute that there is a warming trend, long term data suggests that the earth goes through warm/cold cycles and has throughout history. What some do dispute is man-made warming. The fact that all of the the 'solutions' seem to line someones pockets, primarily at the expense of US citizens (no restrictions are being suggested for China and India and other grossly polluting nations), there exists skepticism. Also, the fact that it is now taught like a religion is rather disturbing. Any research or findings to the contrary is vilified.

In short, it's a complicated subject.
Here's a great discussion of natural climate cycles and were we are in the cycles.

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Where are we currently in the natural cycle (Milankovitch cycle)? The warmest point of the last cycle was around 10,000 years ago, at the peak of the Holocene. Since then, there has been an overall cooling trend, consistent with a continuation of the natural cycle, and this cooling would continue for thousands of years into the future if all else remained the same. But since 1750 however, the CO2 content of the atmosphere has deviated from the natural cycle. Instead of decreasing, it has increased because of the fossil-fuel burning. Methane and nitrous oxide have also increased unnaturally because of agricultural practices and other factors. The world has also warmed unnaturally. We are now deviating from the natural cycle.
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Old 07-09-2014, 11:23 PM   #13
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Things are out of balance. There needs to be a balance between the gift and the task. In a world where economic systems are of the greatest importance, the gift is all but forgotten. I think the thread tittle needs to be expanded. How about why some Americans and Canadians and New Zealanders and .....and.... think....?
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:43 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Rustee View Post
Oh there's plenty of genuine "deniers".

I suspect part of the reason is that the subject is rarely, if ever, presented in an objective undogmatic manner. It's so often infused with ideology (from both sides) that it's tedious to sift through it all for kernels of truth.

It also matters that proposed solutions are usually put forth without any cost/benefit analysis, or they're ineffective, or worse, counterproductive...ethanol for instance. Any opposition to these proposals is usually equated with being callous, ignorant, or misinformed on the entire subject, resulting in both sides only further entrenching themselves in their respective beliefs.
I agree in large part. I think too, scientists generally don't get involved in what's become a political football/talking point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHarryReems View Post
While most don't dispute that there is a warming trend, long term data suggests that the earth goes through warm/cold cycles and has throughout history. What some do dispute is man-made warming. The fact that all of the the 'solutions' seem to line someones pockets, primarily at the expense of US citizens (no restrictions are being suggested for China and India and other grossly polluting nations), there exists skepticism. Also, the fact that it is now taught like a religion is rather disturbing. Any research or findings to the contrary is vilified.

In short, it's a complicated subject.
I don't know that it's a fact that all solutions lines someone's pocket, or, primarily at the expense of U.S. citizens. I forget which Nordic country- or, is it Germany? that's doing very well with wind-power, while being cost effective for all.

I don't see dragging in what other countries may do as relevant, quite frankly, as the U.S. uses more fossil fuels than anyone else.

I believe it's complicated because it makes a good political football.
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Originally Posted by SustaiNZ View Post
Is the earth going through a warming period? Sure, why not. The real question for me is, "Do I give a shit?" to which I can answer a resounding "No."
I give a shit to the degree that I'm sick (possibly literally) of living in air pollution, whether it contributes to climate change or not. That there's a higher incidence of respiratory diseases and allergies in polluted areas is enough for me to want to cut down on carbon emissions.
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Originally Posted by BigDawgsByte View Post
This (via dilbert.com of course)
I love Dilbert, and subscribe. In the site's "mashup" you can tailor the last caption to your liking. I often change the last caption to reflect a co-worker, print it, then leave it on their desk haha.

I wanna know why G-kid hates America so much that he keeps starting these threads. Get your teeth fixed, kid.
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:58 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Silimtao View Post

...

I love Dilbert, and subscribe. In the site's "mashup" you can tailor the last caption to your liking. I often change the last caption to reflect a co-worker, print it, then leave it on their desk haha.

...
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:06 AM   #16
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Well, I will tell you this in my professional opinion*. The Earth has warmed of late. This is extremely well documented by multiple independent lines of evidence. The most recent few decades of warming up to about 17 years ago seems definitely historically abnormal.

Global climate models, on the other hand, are absolute bunk. I could give you a laundry list of their technical failings, but I will stick with the big one, which is epistemological. They are flat out unscientific. I repeat, they are not science. They are what we call scientism, which is simply pseudoscience dressed up as science by using the trappings of science, equations, measurements, models, etc. Global climate models are not scientific because their predictions of the distant future, ie a hundred years from now, cannot be falsified, save for waiting around for decades to test the predictions. And to the extent that we are already in the future previously predicted by the models, they have essentially been falsified.

*I have a Ph. D. in physics and do numerical simulation, mostly computational fluid dynamics and multiphysics, for a living.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:40 AM   #17
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I don't know what the solution is, or whose pockets will be lined, but the scientific evidence is pretty overwhelming (a couple of idiots who doctored a small bit of it notwithstanding). And the evidence is from scientists all around the world, not just in the U.S. There's a big group in USA who think that the global warming alarm is being sounded by liberals in the U.S., but are unaware that the evidence is global and the alarm is international. Many in that group inexplicably place more faith in broadcast journalists than 98% of the world's scientists. Go figure.

I think that there are many factors contributing to denial. One is (blind) ideological allegiance. Another is the belief that remediation will result in diminished quality of life -- which translates to selfishness. Also contributing is an inability to think in the long run. For some, the long run is irrelevant. Many don't hold strong opinions because they don't feel that there is anything they could do about climate change even if they wanted -- when you have no power over societal actions, what good can being alarmed do?

And there's a large group that is so preoccupied with making a living and making ends meet that there's no time or energy left for knowledge seeking, much less activism.

As for me, I just want to breathe clean air. I have had visitors from China who would if they could choose not to return, abandoning family, friends, and professional and social networks in favor of clean air to breathe. Does anyone imagine China's air stays in China? That national environments are separable, and that the quality of life of the entire planet is not at risk? Denying human induced climate change is one thing, but I don't see how environmental -- and especially air quality -- degradation can be denied. And water will be the next crisis, mark my words!
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:43 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Silimtao View Post
I give a shit to the degree that I'm sick (possibly literally) of living in air pollution, whether it contributes to climate change or not. That there's a higher incidence of respiratory diseases and allergies in polluted areas is enough for me to want to cut down on carbon emissions.
Pollution is one thing, and we were very concerned about pollution such that in the 1970s we initiated emission control devices (ECDs) on cars, CA having, I believe still to this day, the toughest emissions regulations in the world. The air quality in LA is better now than it was 40 years ago because of it. The ECDs reduced hydrocarbons, oxides of nitrogen, and carbon monoxide. You don't hear people talk about that today. It's all about CO2 and its effects as contributing to the greenhouse effect. Fine, but CO is a real toxin. Just ask anybody who locked themselves in a garage with the car running. Oh, wait, you can't - 'cause they're dead.

I still don't give a shit that the earth is getting warmer. I really don't. I drive fuel efficient vehicles, recycle, and don't litter or dump shit into rivers or storm drains, etc. Fuck it, my conscience it clear.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:48 AM   #19
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:48 AM   #20
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Oh yeah, I settled for owning a large man eating dawg today.
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