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Old 11-19-2017, 05:25 PM   #1
zanshin777
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Default Secondary Dominants

Why are here extention chords taken as secondary dominants?

http://www.cyberflotsam.com/Music_Se...yDominants.htm


First sentence;

"A secondary dominant is a V chord, or extension thereof (V7, V9, Vll, V13, V7sus4, etc.)..."


I know secondary dominants are dominant chords built on degrees other than tonic in a scale. But here 9, 11, 13 chords also are secondary dominants. Why?
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:02 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
Why are here extention chords taken as secondary dominants?

http://www.cyberflotsam.com/Music_Se...yDominants.htm


First sentence;

"A secondary dominant is a V chord, or extension thereof (V7, V9, Vll, V13, V7sus4, etc.)..."


I know secondary dominants are dominant chords built on degrees other than tonic in a scale. But here 9, 11, 13 chords also are secondary dominants. Why?
No expert here, but it's because you are still talking about the same degree...V. A 5 chord is still a 5 chord with extensions.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:00 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
Why are here extention chords taken as secondary dominants?

http://www.cyberflotsam.com/Music_Se...yDominants.htm


First sentence;

"A secondary dominant is a V chord, or extension thereof (V7, V9, Vll, V13, V7sus4, etc.)..."
Dominants - primary or secondary - can be extended in various ways: adding the 9, 11 or 13 to the basic chord.

But "V11" basically doesn't exist, so forget that one. If you ever see - say - a "G11" chord symbol, assume it means G7sus4 or G9sus4. IOW, 11 chords always omit the 3rd, making them 7sus4 chords. The "11" symbol is just used as shorthand for "7sus4" or "9sus4".

Dominants can also be altered. The 5th and 9th of the chord can be raised or lowered, and this applies to secondary dominants as well as primary ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
I know secondary dominants are dominant chords built on degrees other than tonic in a scale.
Not exactly.
The "primary dominant" is the V chord, ie the chord built on the V or dominant degree. The V7 is then the "dominant 7th".

A "secondary dominant" is defined as "a V chord of any chord in the scale other than the tonic".
So you can have secondary dominants built on the I, II, III, VI and VII degrees of a scale, because they act as V of the IV, V, vi, ii and iii chords respectively.

E.g in key of C major, you can have all these secondary dominants:

C7 = V of F
D = V of G
E = V of Am
A = V of Dm
B = V of Em

Only C7 needs the b7 (Bb) because that distinguishes it from the tonic. I.e., "C" is "I", while C7 is "V/IV" (V of the IV chord). With the other four, their major 3rds define them as a secondary dominants, confirmed by being followed by their target diatonic chord. IOW, the E major triad is "dominant" on account of functioning as V of Am. Adding a 7th makes no difference, except to enhance the tension.

BTW, when dominants are extended, the extensions usually relate to the following target chord. So if the V7 is resolving to a major chord, it can have 9 or 13 extensions. If it's resolving to a minor chord, it's more likely it will have b9 or b13 (or #9 or b5) alterations. So D9 or D13 might go to G, while E7b9 will go to Am.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR View Post
BTW, when dominants are extended, the extensions usually relate to the following target chord. So if the V7 is resolving to a major chord, it can have 9 or 13 extensions. If it's resolving to a minor chord, it's more likely it will have b9 or b13 (or #9 or b5) alterations. So D9 or D13 might go to G, while E7b9 will go to Am.

Why?
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:18 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
Why?
It is dependant on what scale your diatonic to.

For instance

G9 contains the notes; G B D F A - which are all diatonic to C major so this is the V chord of C major.

If we were resolving to a C minor from a G7 chord we can't be in the key of C natural minor as B is flat in C minor... we could treat it as harmonic minor which is common, in which case G B D and F are all fine but A is flat in C harmonic minor so if we wanted to extend the V chord we would use a flat 9, the 11th would be C so thats fine the 13th would be E which is again flat in C harmonic minor so 13 would also be flat... make sense?

C Major
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E
V Chord
G B D F A C E
1 3 5 b7 9 11 13
C Harmonic Minor
C D Eb F G Ab B C D Eb F G Ab B C D Eb
V chord
G B D F Ab C Eb
1 3 5 b7 b9 11 b13


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Old 11-24-2017, 02:30 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
Why?
^ What he said.

It also applies when a secondary ii chord is used (which it normally is in jazz).
E.g., when going to F in key of C major, you might see Gm7-C7 - the ii-V from the F major key.
When going to Dm, you might see Em7b5-A7b9 (not Em7-A7), because that's the ii-V from the key of D minor.
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Old 11-24-2017, 03:47 PM   #7
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Understood.

Thank you very much all for your detailed answers ReaGeorge, JonR and Seattle.
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