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Old 10-21-2017, 11:05 PM   #1
zanshin777
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Default Bright and Dark Modes

https://youtu.be/ObVRH-aHBRQ?t=33 (Pinpointed Link)

He says he ordered those modes from the brightest to the darkest (from top to the bottom)

by criteria of half steps placement on the scale.

But I don't get the logic behind that.
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Old 10-21-2017, 11:36 PM   #2
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My take is the number of half steps in a scale, which can be dissonant, and seeking resolution. It has a more "unstable" feel, which can make it feel "dark." I love the sound of the diminished scale for that reason.

I'm by no means a theory guru, and working my way through it myself, but that's my quick take on it.
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Old 10-22-2017, 01:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
https://youtu.be/ObVRH-aHBRQ?t=33 (Pinpointed Link)

He says he ordered those modes from the brightest to the darkest (from top to the bottom)

by criteria of half steps placement on the scale.

But I don't get the logic behind that.
Looking at the seven modes of the major scale, the brightest mode has the biggest (widest or highest) intervals from the root.
As you go down the list, one interval at a time is reduced by a half-step, which produces the aural effect we liken to "darkening" or increased "intensity". You can see this if you arrange the scale steps proportionally:
Code:
HALF STEPS:    |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
LYDIAN         1  .  2  .  3  . #4  5  .  6  .  7  1
IONIAN         1  .  2  .  3  4  .  5  .  6  .  7  1 (MAJOR)
MIXOLYDIAN     1  .  2  .  3  4  .  5  .  6 b7  .  1
DORIAN         1  .  2 b3  .  4  .  5  .  6 b7  .  1
AEOLIAN        1  .  2 b3  .  4  .  5 b6  . b7  .  1 (NATURAL MINOR)
PHRYGIAN       1 b2  . b3  .  4  .  5 b6  . b7  .  1
LOCRIAN        1 b2  . b3  .  4 b5  . b6  . b7  .  1
His list is focusing on minor scales - any scale with a minor 3rd - but is much more contentious when gets below locrian.
There is no logic there, it all seems arbitrary to me. IMO, you can't support the list through the sound of the scales, which is the only basis for any sensible music theory.

I don't agree (eg( that dorian is "brighter" than melodic minor. I simply hear it differently from him - I hear it exactly as the "logic" would predict: it's the major scale with a lowered 3rd, and in terms of brightness I would personally situate it around the mixolydian-dorian region. But really a "dark-bright" distinction becomes unhelpful there (IMO) - the comparison between the sounds is more complex than that. The b3 pulls one way and the maj7 another, as it were.

You may or may not agree, because (and this proves it) hearing is subjective to a large degree. So his list (outside the top 4 modes) is worthless for that reason. Agree with him if you like (if you hear it the way he does), but you don't have to.

Harmonic minor is certainly darker than melodic minor - but again its particular quality is not dependent on relative "darkness"; it's dependent on the augmented 2nd between b6 and 7 which gives it that distinctive "exotic/Spanish/gypsy" flavour.

The other scales are odd choices.

"Dorian b5" is 2nd mode of harmonic major. Harmonic major is a rare scale in itself, let alone any of its modes.

Hungarian Minor, likewise, is one of those scales you find in scale lists, but never actually hear in actual music. (Well, I don't listen to much Hungarian music, so maybe I'm missing out... ) It's harmonic minor with a #4, which ought (logically!) to make it "brighter". It certainly has an "exotic" sound, because of the #4-5-b6 half-steps and the two aug 2nds (b3-#4, b6-7), but it's debatable whether that equates to "dark". I.e., it comes back to subjective impression.

The "tonic diminished" is what most jazz musicians call "whole-half diminished" and classical folk might call "octatonic" - it's common in jazz improvisation (at least according to chord-scale theory), but music is not written in this scale, and it makes little sense (IMO) in a modal interchange chart. There's nothing "tonic" about it in any meaningful sense, because its root chord is unstable, so it can't be the tonic of a key.

He may well have some other practical (if not "logical") basis for his list, explained elsewhere in the video. I can't say I'm interested enough to find out. (Because it doesn't reflect my own experience with any of the music I know or play, which ranges from folk to blues to rock to most kinds of jazz.)
...

I have to say you're spending way too much time with Rick Beato's videos! For two reasons, I suggest you abandon them and work with more traditional, conventional and reputable theory courses.
Those two reason are (a) a lot of his assertions are somewhat flakey, debatable at best; (2) a lot of it is confusing you, judging from all the questions you ask here! That suggests, in fact, that your instincts are good, because you're picking up on the very elements of his teaching that don't seem to ring true.

Basic theory study (if working online) should begin here: http://www.musictheory.net/lessons
You may know all of that, but (if you haven't done so) I still recommend working through in order to check.
Other recommended sites are:
http://www.teoria.com/en/tutorials/
https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/wiki/index

https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory is also an excellent forum for asking theory questions (the best I've found). Highly knowledgeable folk who don't mind dumb questions!

Last edited by JonR; 10-22-2017 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 10-23-2017, 02:32 PM   #4
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Good stuff Jon.
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:12 PM   #5
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Not sure if this exactly goes with the thread but I think its really interesting. I found this searching the web a while back.



LYDIAN very bright, upbeat. Good for anything very bright and upbeat such as pop, kids music, etc
IONIAN very sweet, happy, bright. Perfect for happy songs, love songs, etc. Used for almost all childrens music
MIXOLYDIAN middle of the road bright scale. Good for light rock, pop, country, etc
DORIAN perfect middle ground. Not too bright, not to dark. Good for country, rock, blues.
AEOLIAN gritty, bluesy, warm sounding rock scale. This is the standard rock and blues scale.
PHRYGIAN dark, classical metal sound. A Randy Rhoads favorite.
LOCRIAN very dark, dissident, brooding. Good for heavy metal, dark classical, etc
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR View Post
Looking at the seven modes of the major scale, the brightest mode has the biggest (widest or highest) intervals from the root.
As you go down the list, one interval at a time is reduced by a half-step, which produces the aural effect we liken to "darkening" or increased "intensity". You can see this if you arrange the scale steps proportionally:
Code:
HALF STEPS:    |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
LYDIAN         1  .  2  .  3  . #4  5  .  6  .  7  1
IONIAN         1  .  2  .  3  4  .  5  .  6  .  7  1 (MAJOR)
MIXOLYDIAN     1  .  2  .  3  4  .  5  .  6 b7  .  1
DORIAN         1  .  2 b3  .  4  .  5  .  6 b7  .  1
AEOLIAN        1  .  2 b3  .  4  .  5 b6  . b7  .  1 (NATURAL MINOR)
PHRYGIAN       1 b2  . b3  .  4  .  5 b6  . b7  .  1
LOCRIAN        1 b2  . b3  .  4 b5  . b6  . b7  .  1
His list is focusing on minor scales - any scale with a minor 3rd - but is much more contentious when gets below locrian.
There is no logic there, it all seems arbitrary to me. IMO, you can't support the list through the sound of the scales, which is the only basis for any sensible music theory.

I don't agree (eg( that dorian is "brighter" than melodic minor. I simply hear it differently from him - I hear it exactly as the "logic" would predict: it's the major scale with a lowered 3rd, and in terms of brightness I would personally situate it around the mixolydian-dorian region. But really a "dark-bright" distinction becomes unhelpful there (IMO) - the comparison between the sounds is more complex than that. The b3 pulls one way and the maj7 another, as it were.

You may or may not agree, because (and this proves it) hearing is subjective to a large degree. So his list (outside the top 4 modes) is worthless for that reason. Agree with him if you like (if you hear it the way he does), but you don't have to.

Harmonic minor is certainly darker than melodic minor - but again its particular quality is not dependent on relative "darkness"; it's dependent on the augmented 2nd between b6 and 7 which gives it that distinctive "exotic/Spanish/gypsy" flavour.

The other scales are odd choices.

"Dorian b5" is 2nd mode of harmonic major. Harmonic major is a rare scale in itself, let alone any of its modes.

Hungarian Minor, likewise, is one of those scales you find in scale lists, but never actually hear in actual music. (Well, I don't listen to much Hungarian music, so maybe I'm missing out... ) It's harmonic minor with a #4, which ought (logically!) to make it "brighter". It certainly has an "exotic" sound, because of the #4-5-b6 half-steps and the two aug 2nds (b3-#4, b6-7), but it's debatable whether that equates to "dark". I.e., it comes back to subjective impression.

The "tonic diminished" is what most jazz musicians call "whole-half diminished" and classical folk might call "octatonic" - it's common in jazz improvisation (at least according to chord-scale theory), but music is not written in this scale, and it makes little sense (IMO) in a modal interchange chart. There's nothing "tonic" about it in any meaningful sense, because its root chord is unstable, so it can't be the tonic of a key.

He may well have some other practical (if not "logical") basis for his list, explained elsewhere in the video. I can't say I'm interested enough to find out. (Because it doesn't reflect my own experience with any of the music I know or play, which ranges from folk to blues to rock to most kinds of jazz.)
...

I have to say you're spending way too much time with Rick Beato's videos! For two reasons, I suggest you abandon them and work with more traditional, conventional and reputable theory courses.
Those two reason are (a) a lot of his assertions are somewhat flakey, debatable at best; (2) a lot of it is confusing you, judging from all the questions you ask here! That suggests, in fact, that your instincts are good, because you're picking up on the very elements of his teaching that don't seem to ring true.

Basic theory study (if working online) should begin here: http://www.musictheory.net/lessons
You may know all of that, but (if you haven't done so) I still recommend working through in order to check.
Other recommended sites are:
http://www.teoria.com/en/tutorials/
https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/wiki/index

https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory is also an excellent forum for asking theory questions (the best I've found). Highly knowledgeable folk who don't mind dumb questions!
Wow +1
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Old 11-09-2017, 11:23 PM   #7
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Thumbs up Cool Vid

Beautiful video that help's to correlate what these scales mean and do to one's mind .

Thanks

EZ :

HR
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