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Old 01-10-2018, 01:24 PM   #21
pdawg0
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Originally Posted by Mr. Boston View Post
Can someone point me to an atheist thinker (actual research scientist or otherwise) who is ACTIVELY attempting to prove the universe is godless?
There have been some very vocal atheist groups in Texas over the years. Along with very vocal religious groups. They hold demonstrations, etc. I don't have any names right now, but most were/are hayseed idiots. This is the land of extreme view points.

Edit - Just looked it up. Madalyn Murray O'Hair is the person I was remembering as being the most vocal.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:13 PM   #22
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Can someone point me to an atheist thinker (actual research scientist or otherwise) who is ACTIVELY attempting to prove the universe is godless? I've watched a LOT of Hitchens, Dawkins, Krauss, Harris, etc. on YouTube and can't recall a single instance where any of them have professed to having actually been working on some kind of PROOF of the non-existence of god(s) or supernatural entities. I've seen numerous instances where some of the above have professed the opinion that these things don't exist, and even instances where they have embraced gnostic atheism - the position that they claim to KNOW gods do not exist. But I don't recall anyone claiming to have proof or to be working towards obtaining proof.

In fact one of the primary "gripes" I've seen from most atheist thinkers is the rejection that there is ANY burden of proof on he who rejects an unsubstantiated claim. That's a classic shifting of the goal posts that theists of all types like to attempt. The notion that god(s) exist is the CLAIM. Therefore the burden of proof lies with the claimant. I can't prove a negative and don't have to. It is not incumbent upon me to prove WHY I fail to accept a completely unsubstantiated claim of ANY kind whether it be about gods, leprechauns, or werewolves.

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be denied without evidence," - Christopher Hitchens

"You're the one making the claim, you have to tell me why you believe it. I could walk around saying, 'Prove I can't fly,' and you'd say, 'Fuck you! Prove you can!'" - Ricky Gervais
Why would someone saying they believe in god have to prove it? Thats kind of absurd. Thats the whole point of belief, something that is not possible to prove or disprove. And therefore you have to separate belief from science. Dont mix them. Simple. Saying that you believe in some sort of unknown power or god could just as well be right as if you say that there isnt some sort of unknown power or god.

However there are certain aspects in all religious beliefs that you can disprove. A good example would be creationism and that the earth was created in 7 days. Science can disprove this, and it has disproved it. The notion of a god or unknown power is not the same. We just cant know. Some say that one day we will, I dont think we will, but hey, now we are back at belief as a concept again.

This is why personally when someone asks me if Im religious I respond that I believe in something. Some unknown factor, otherwordly power. Something we cant grasp. Maybe a god? I dont know. I would like to keep it unspecified. I dont know if that makes me religious or not. Some day I might find out.

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Old 01-10-2018, 02:32 PM   #23
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Often it's working in the idea that the universe or some phenomena does not require God to make it work.
Ah I gotcha. Yes, I believe that is a common opinion among the non-believer crowd; that physics and natural laws don't require a prime mover or any specific intent. It's an opinion I share although I don't claim to KNOW it to be true and certainly don't profess to have any kind of proof.

I was asked once by a believer on another forum what evidence I would actually accept of the existence of a divine power in the universe. I had to admit I was stumped. I couldn't say what evidence could be presented that I would feel comfortable accepting as PROOF of the existence of a deity. What could anyone show me that could ONLY be the result of the action of a divine being? I can only assume I'll know it when and if I see it, lol.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:38 PM   #24
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Why would someone saying they believe in god have to prove it? Thats kind of absurd.
Because it's a claim - they're saying god DOES exist. Like any claim the person asserting it needs to prove that it's true. I'm not saying it's definitively false. But it's not the responsibility of the skeptic to prove the initial claim false. I'm not REFUTING the claim - just refusing to accept it due to lack of evidence. I'm not criticizing your belief or even judging you for having it, I'm just declining to believe along with you.

If I told you I believed there was a teapot orbiting Saturn, wouldn't you expect me to show you some evidence to substantiate my claim? Or would think you should accept it as true simply because you yourself can't prove it false?

What if I said my proof was that I could FEEL that it was there, and that my family for dozens of generations had believed in the teapot and had thought of that faith and belief as a virtue? What if I THEN proceeded to tell you that you can't marry a coffee drinker because the teapot doesn't advocate that kind of thing?

I don't speak for anyone else and certainly don't consider myself part of any ideological agenda. My position is agnostic atheism. I don't think there are gods - but I don't claim to KNOW it with 100% certainty. It's an X and Y axis type of thing gnostic and agnostic describe the degree of certainty, theist and atheist describe the position itself:

Gnostic Atheist: Knows there is no divine being or beings
Agnostic Atheist: Assumes there is no divine being or beings but doesn't claim to know
Agnostic Theist: Assumes there is a divine being or beings but doesn't claim to know
Gnostic Theist: Knows there is a divine being or beings
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:41 PM   #25
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Because it's a claim - they're saying god DOES exist. Like any claim the person asserting it needs to prove that it's true. I'm not saying it's definitively false. But it's not the responsibility of the skeptic to prove the initial claim false. I'm not REFUTING the claim - just refusing to accept it due to lack of evidence. I'm not criticizing your belief or even judging you for having it, I'm just declining to believe along with you.

If I told you I believed there was a teapot orbiting Saturn, wouldn't you expect me to show you some evidence to substantiate my claim? Or would think you should accept it as true simply because you yourself can't prove it false?
Read the rest of my post. The teapot is not a good example, as you definately can prove if its there or not. Im not claiming anything, im saying I believe in something. You dont have to believe, thats totally fine. But you cant say that what I believe is wrong. And I cant say that you are wrong in believing that there isnt a god.

The word believe is pretty central.

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Old 01-10-2018, 02:59 PM   #26
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To add a little to my other posts.

What im saying is that you have to make a clear distinction between believing and knowing. That is why I use the words believing, and unknown. Simply cause I dont know. If I had evidence for believing in something unknown it would be known. It would be confirmed, and then I could make a claim saying that what was unknown is now known (god exists). However im not saying anything like that at all. Im stuck at the believing part. I cant make a claim, and I dont know that god exists, therefore I BELIEVE in something, I dont claim to KNOW anything.

And similarly you dont know either. You believe that something unknown doesnt exist. You also dont know anything. We are both left in the dark believing different things, but thats okay.
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:18 PM   #27
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Read the rest of my post. The teapot is not a good example, as you definately can prove if its there or not. Im not claiming anything, im saying I believe in something. You dont have to believe, thats totally fine. But you cant say that what I believe is wrong. And I cant say that you are wrong in believing that there isnt a god.

The word believe is pretty central.

Yeah I get that. And I'm not talking about you specifically. I'm talking about people who want to direct the law and customs of the secular society based on what they perceive to be the dictates of a divine power they can't prove even exists.

I think it's one thing to stand before the majesty of the universe and believe there is an intent behind it. I completely understand that instinct. But for someone to stand at a pulpit and claim to not only KNOW such a being exists but to further claim that HE knows the intent and preferences of the creator of the universe and therefore HE should decide when it's appropriate for people to have sex and with whom, to know who can get married and who can't, to know what kind of food to eat, which day to rest, what kinds of clothes to wear, and to KNOW that the universe was created in a certain way without one shred of observable evidence to substantiate it... that's where we have problems.

If believers would just leave well enough alone - keep their beliefs between themselves and their families and their gods and use their holy texts as PERSONAL moral directives that would be just fine with me. If you believe in a god that forbids sex before marriage then YOU can't have that kind of sex. If you believe in a god that opposes birth control or abortion then YOU can't use birth control or have an abortion. If your god doesn't want you to eat pork or shellfish then YOU had better avoid the scallops wrapped in bacon at the office party - but don't try to outlaw these things for everyone else.

It's when they attempt to stick their noses where they don't belong, in the bedrooms of strangers or in the public school science classroom that's when atheists get uppity about it, lol.
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:22 PM   #28
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Ladies and Gents......

The OP's question was... Why do authors feel compelled to sperg their beliefs?

And instead of focusing on the question, we now have three pages of people sperg-ing their beliefs.
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:25 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Mr. Boston View Post
Yeah I get that. And I'm not talking about you specifically. I'm talking about people who want to direct the law and customs of the secular society based on what they perceive to be the dictates of a divine power they can't prove even exists.

I think it's one thing to stand before the majesty of the universe and believe there is an intent behind it. I completely understand that instinct. But for someone to stand at a pulpit and claim to not only KNOW such a being exists but to further claim that HE knows the intent and preferences of the creator of the universe and therefore HE should decide when it's appropriate for people to have sex and with whom, to know who can get married and who can't, to know what kind of food to eat, which day to rest, what kinds of clothes to wear, and to KNOW that the universe was created in a certain way without one shred of observable evidence to substantiate it... that's where we have problems.

If believers would just leave well enough alone - keep their beliefs between themselves and their families and their gods and use their holy texts as PERSONAL moral directives that would be just fine with me. If you believe in a god that forbids sex before marriage then YOU can't have that kind of sex. If you believe in a god that opposes birth control or abortion then YOU can't use birth control or have an abortion. If your god doesn't want you to eat pork or shellfish then YOU had better avoid the scallops wrapped in bacon at the office party - but don't try to outlaw these things for everyone else.

It's when they attempt to stick their noses where they don't belong, in the bedrooms of strangers or in the public school science classroom that's when atheists get uppity about it, lol.
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:29 PM   #30
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Ladies and Gents......

The OP's question was... Why do authors feel compelled to sperg their beliefs?

And instead of focusing on the question, we now have three pages of people sperg-ing their beliefs.
I know. It does seem like we've derailed the train a bit but maybe not. The first post did open the door somewhat to a discussion on the nature of belief and knowledge.

More apropos to that original point I will say that one of the inherent strengths of the scientific model is peer review. Any scientific theory or conclusion needs to be presented for analysis by the scientist's peers before it will be taken seriously or accepted by the scientific community at large. It's a rigorous and methodical process. Can it COMPLETELY remove the influence of personal opinions and biases? No. But it's the best method we have and CERTAINLY more strenuous and self-correcting than something like, "Hey - God told me to cut off my foreskin, y'all better do this to your kids if you want to really be the chosen people." Religion is the ONLY human endeavor wherein "revelation" is an acceptable step in the process of strengthening an idea.
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