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Old 01-10-2018, 07:05 PM   #21
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Let's make it simple. When I get to heaven, there won't be any atheist there for me to have to deal with. Problem solved.
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:09 PM   #22
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Let's make it simple. When I get to heaven, there won't be any atheist there for me to have to deal with. Problem solved.
But the opposite is equally plausible... when I get to Hell there will be an appreciable shortage of Bible Thumpers too. And we'll have the better house band, that pretty much goes without saying.
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:09 PM   #23
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Those are great points.

Now heaven and hell..
What about this.....

What if there is a 'root dimension', and it's occupied by a lifeform that is conscious thought. From this higher dimension, physical matter is as small and simple, as easily manipulated via energy, strings, space, etc, as we would manipulate ingredients in the kitchen. And we are consciousness trapped temporarily in the physical environment of the brain. The brain is but a transducer linking physical sensory, controlling the physical form, etc, to this consciousness. Once consciousness is freed from the physical prison entrapping it, it naturally moves to another plane, but the consciousness of the 'that dimension' can pull us into that dimension where occupying it is a much more pleasant experience.
Certainly plausible, and sort of like the Gnostic faith involving the 'life spark.' I used to be really religious but went through transitions of Christianity to Universalist to Gnostic. The whole Hell concept was a major problem for me though. Infinite punishment for finite crime just felt wrong. I wondered if I should be lucky enough to get into heaven, could I be comfortable, knowing that millions (if not billions) of people were suffering agony for all eternity. It became a major struggle, so I decided it made more sense to focus on what we know through science.

Religion is geographical, correct science is universal.

Another paradox (this one is my own.) If heaven is real and also hell, as a christian and in heaven, if I could be granted an audience with God, and was allowed to ask that all in hell simply be wiped out, not saved, just cease to exist and end their suffering, would I ask God to do it. Easy answer, yes, no question, no doubt. That in effect would make me kinder than God, which as any bible reader will tell you is not possible.
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:09 PM   #24
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Yes - that is all DEFINITELY possible. My caveat is if we can't know for sure that such a creature in such a dimension even exists, how can we have even an IOTA of certainty that we know what it wants - that we'll make it angry by jerking off or eating bacon? Isn't if FAR more likely that powerful men capitalized on our fear of mortality to consolidate their power and enforce their rules? All while extracting untold wealth for themselves, I might add.

I wouldn't go so far as to say there is definitely not a god, or that a god is impossible. But RELIGION, is undoubtedly the work of Man, and for far less noble purposes than encouraging peace and brotherhood. That much seems abundantly clear to me.
Now the 'knowing' thing is based on if a person believes the bible is really what it is or not. If you do, then what it says, is what that creator wants us to know, if not, then that person doesn't have a 'guide'.

Bacon- That was, according to the bible, before all foods became OK. they suspect the reason was, that pork was risky to eat (even now we know to cook it well, and handle it safely) so if you go by what God would say, he'd say, in those days, to avoid it, for the people's own good. Now, God wouldn't care, even the bible said that later about all foods becoming ok to eat. That's just one example.

But yeah, no one has 'seen' evolution, only things that lead to that conclusion, no one I know, has seen God, only things that lead to that conclusion.

I've seen things that can't be explained by science, so where does that leave me?
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:11 PM   #25
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Certainly plausible, and sort of like the Gnostic faith involving the 'life spark.' I used to be really religious but went through transitions of Christianity to Universalist to Gnostic. The whole Hell concept was a major problem for me though. Infinite punishment for finite crime just felt wrong. I wondered if I should be lucky enough to get into heaven, could I be comfortable, knowing that millions (if not billions) of people were suffering agony for all eternity. It became a major struggle, so I decided it made more sense to focus on what we know through science.

Religion is geographical, correct science is universal.

Another paradox (this one is my own.) If heaven is real and also hell, as a christian and in heaven, if I could be granted an audience with God, and was allowed to ask that all in hell simply be wiped out, not saved, just cease to exist and end their suffering, would I ask God to do it. Easy answer, yes, no question, no doubt. That in effect would make me kinder than God, which as any bible reader will tell you is not possible.
But to me that's the part that people miss.
Hell or what is called hell, is not a punishment but the natural destination of a 'spirit', what we call heaven, is an alternate better place to be, free to go there, just through an RSVP.
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:13 PM   #26
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Not saying there isn't still a great deal of wonder left in the world. I'm just saying I'll cast my lot with the crowd that is continually self-correcting, that holds those who tear down and replace its most vaunted theories with better ones as heroes, instead of the side that (historically) ties its detractors and naysayers to wooden stakes and burns them or bends them over and cuts their heads off with a sword, etc.
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:15 PM   #27
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Somehow, what we call faith, must alter the unseen properties of the 'soul/spirit' to where it's now compatible with dimension we call heaven, thus allowing that journey to take place instead of where that consciousness would naturally go.
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:17 PM   #28
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Not saying there isn't still a great deal of wonder left in the world. I'm just saying I'll cast my lot with the crowd that is continually self-correcting, that holds those who tear down and replace its most vaunted theories with better ones as heroes, instead of the side that (historically) ties its detractors and naysayers to wooden stakes and burns them or bends them over and cuts their heads off with a sword, etc.
Right, and those that condemn, burn and berate others, are actually disobeying the very God they are pushing on those people.
The bible states that God says, Do not judge, lest you also be judged. Maybe there is more to that than we glean at first glance....
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:24 PM   #29
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Not saying there isn't still a great deal of wonder left in the world. I'm just saying I'll cast my lot with the crowd that is continually self-correcting, that holds those who tear down and replace its most vaunted theories with better ones as heroes, instead of the side that (historically) ties its detractors and naysayers to wooden stakes and burns them or bends them over and cuts their heads off with a sword, etc.
Considering I'm stuck trying to figure out how time could be created, welcome to my World

Time cannot stretch back for infinity, or everything that could happen, would have happened already.

If time was created at the moment of the big bang, then the singularity must have also been created from nothing. The key words in there are 'created.' This to me suggests, there is something that exists in an alternate dimension where time has no meaning, in fact time there cannot exist.

Without time and space constraints anything is possible. Who knows, one day I might be able to play Cliffs of Dover note perfect.
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:26 PM   #30
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Right, and those that condemn, burn and berate others, are actually disobeying the very God they are pushing on those people.
The bible states that God says, Do not judge, lest you also be judged. Maybe there is more to that than we glean at first glance....
Yup, a real bummer for judges.
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