Cobalt

My approach to modes is that they are just major scales. If someone says play A dorian my brain would find the major scale that has A as the 2nd note. That would be G Major. So G major has the same notes as A Dorian. After reading the link Minotaur posted on modes I had a aha moment. Lets say you need B Dorian. My old way of thinking was to play A Major. Thanks to Minotaur now I would just start on any B note and play the major scale but play it from the 2nd degree. So it would be W-H-W-W-W-H-W. My brain would see it as 2 34 5 6 71. I know intervals across strings very well so it just seems easier to me like this. Thanks Minotaur! Is my thinking correct?

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Budda

I'm not Minotaur. But, yes you seem to have it. Modes are all about Context.

guitarcraze

interesting application on this topic...cool jam track that uses Phrygian but ALSO tells you what major scale that is and then practice jamming on it to get the sound in your ears...i like this one..


let me find it...hold on ~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOfoRLkMJJs

that should be it!

Minotaur

I'd get my ass handed to me for saying this on the TalkBass forum (wait wut? I already did ), but I like the explanation from About Music Education that modes are displaced scales in that each mode starts on the next degree of a major scale.

But there is a wrinkle. D Phrygian, for example is not the D major scale starting on F#. It's not F# G A B C# D E. It's D Eb F G A Bb C. Why? Because it starts on the 3rd note of Bb major: Phrygian - Constructed from the third note of a major scale.

Bb C D Eb F G A = Bb major; D is the 3rd note in Bb maj, so in Phrygian mode it's the tonic.
D Eb F G A Bb C = D Phrygian

F G A Bb C D E = F major; A is the 3rd note in F maj, so in Phrygian mode it's the tonic.
A Bb C D E F G = A Phrygian

What are modes? - Musical Modes, Modal Scales

Question: What are modes?

Answer: Modes are used in many types of music; from sacred music to jazz to rock. Composers use it to add "flavor" to their compositions in order to avoid predictability. It is formed by naming a different note as the root (1st) instead of the original root of the scale. Thus, in a way, modes can be defined as displaced major scales.

Types of Modal Scales

•Ionian - Also known as the major scale; follows the pattern W-W-H-W-W-W-H.

•Dorian - Constructed from the second note of a major scale; follows the pattern W-H-W-W-W-H-W.

•Phrygian - Constructed from the third note of a major scale; follows the pattern H-W-W-W-H-W-W.

•Lydian - Constructed from the fourth note of a major scale; follows the pattern W-W-W-H-W-W-H.

•Mixolydian - Also known as "mixo," is constructed from the fifth note of a major scale and follows the pattern W-W-H-W-W-H-W.

•Aeolian - Also known as the natural minor scale, is constructed from the sixth note of a major scale and follows the pattern W-H-W-W-H-W-W.

•Locrian - Constructed from the seventh note of a major scale; follows the pattern H-W-W-H-W-W-W.

Each mode has a very distinct sound; for example, the Phrygian mode sounds melancholy and reflects the music of Spain. The Lydian mode sounds happy and is often used in jazz and rock music. The Mixolydian mode evokes a bluesy sound and can often be heard in jazz, blues and rock music. The Locrian mode, on the other hand, has a very strange sound but is rarely used.

Personally I think this is all hunky-dory and interesting, but does nothing for my playing. A song is already written as it's written, and I'm going to play it as it's written, whether it's Ionoan, Locrian, Aeolian or Liliputian. This is all necessary for composing, imo.

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Budda

Yeah, I agree. This is why I say that the Modes are all about context.

traviskaufman

Yeah this is fine and all, but there are certain REASONS why you use modes! If you are in A major and have a Bm7 chord, and you think, ok B dorian but yeah that's just A major starting on the supertonic, than you're still in A Ionian and you're missing the point of modal playing. You have to say to yourself, okay, I have this Bm7 chord that's functioning as PREDOMINANT ii chord in the key of A major. Now, what's UNIQUE about the mode used for this chord? The raised 6th in a minor backdrop is definitely unique. So you focus in on that, play around with that G#, it's what makes dorian mode the dorian mode. How about phrygian? Gotta be that flat 2, so you focus on that in your solos. You can certainly use all of the root note's scale patterns, just remember which notes are the focus of which mode.

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Minotaur

Not to be intransigent or draw this out, but does that apply to improvising or to playing something already written? If you're improvising I can understand the need to be that creative.

To my way of thinking, if I'm playing something already written, I don't give a tinker's damn what mode or key or scale it's in. The only concern I'd have is transposing it for the vocalist, and transposing to another key is as easy as falling down drunk.

Now, it's possible I'm missing something, and we are all here to learn.

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Silimtao

Yes, modes are very sorely misunderstood- I'll be the last to say I understand it with great depth or even try to explain much of it. But I think one of the biggest misconceptions about modes is thinking, "if I start on this scale degree, I've 'gone modal.' "

I'm personally not crazy about saying that modes are "simply" displaced scales either, because I think that's an over-simplification. I agree with Budda about context, but what's so difficult is explaining that context.

I really think anyone delving into modes should get down diatonic harmony, understanding intervallic relationships, basic chord construction, and proper ear training. To me, that's the very, very basics and jumping off point of learning music theory.

btw, welcome to the forums, Travis. I'm a New Yorker myself. Theory is always a bitch to discuss- not just here, but I've seen riots break out over it in other forums too. Quite frankly, theory gives me a headache. But I really hate when a beginner posts a basic question on say, a major scale, and someone jumps in (not saying you have), with a "flat the 7, etc, etc.," If you've read through the theory section, you'll see that many theory threads simply have died on the vine.

This has always been a personal irk for me here; if someone asks a fundamental question, then give a basic answer, and consider the questioner's level of understanding. Sorry, I'm venting here.

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traviskaufman

Minotaur: I'm totally talking about improvisation. Obviously, if you're playing what's written, then the challenge becomes focusing on which notes in the score to accentuate, but you're not actually choosing which note to play.

Silimtao: Thanks for the welcome! I love it here in the city it's so inspiring. I hope that you didn't take my post as facetious, I was just trying to give my two sense in on modes as best I could. I agree with what you say completely about the big misconception of modes; I guess that's what I was trying to say with my overblown response. But my approach to modes was just that I try to focus on the notes that make the mode what it is.

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Silimtao

You're welcome, travis. You're not a native here, or you're too young to be jaded by the city? This place has worn me out, lol.

No, I didn't take your post as being facetious at all; I took it as you putting some context to modes, and you underscored the misconception about modes.

I'm a Berklee College of Music dropout, btw (early 80's). Even the theory instructors there disagreed about things. We had "classical" theorists, and "jazz" theorists. Wont bore you with the details, as many of my old posts are littered with my complaints about Berklee. But the theory instructors always explained things a minimum of 2 ways- the classical way, and the jazz way. It was enough to make your head explode. I'm sorry I didn't go to the University of Miami, where I heard there was a great music program, or even GIT in California, since I was interested in playing. But an old jazzer named Lenny Breau talked me into going to Berklee. Eh, it is what it is.

I've spent 25 years forgetting everything I learned, but slowly delving back into it in my own way. I avoid the theory section here for the most part. Have fun here, it's a great bunch, and there's always questions.

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