Some advanced improv ideas for players bored with the norm

traviskaufman · 05-04-2010, 05:53 AM

What's up guys,

I'm a bit of a theory freak, so I'd like to share some really cool tricks that some of you may now but will bring more interest to people who don't know them. The explanations are meant for people with a pretty solid background in theory (especially jazz theory) so if anything is unclear let me know and I will try to explain it differently. So with that being said I hope you guys find this useful, and hopefully it will encourage the learning of some exotic scales!

1) Practical application of the whole tone scale: I found that a really great use of the whole tone scale is in a ii-V-I progression where the V is substituted with the flat ii. For example, a simple progression with a tritone sub like Dm7-Db7(b5)-CMaj7. When you hit the Db7(b5), you can utilize the Db whole tone scale. How does this work? Well let's look at the Db whole-tone scale in context of the Db7(b5) chord.

The Db7(b5) chord, as a stacked chord, contains the notes Db, F, Gb (Abb), and Cb (B natural), with the F and Cb (B natural), the 3rd and 7th, as the functioning tones. The Db whole-tone scale contains the notes Db, Eb, F, G, A, B (Cb). As you can see, the whole tone scale contains both functioning tones of the Db7(b5) chord, as well as the 9th, #11th, and #13th scale degrees, which creates some beautiful tension as your cadence resolves.

It may be also pertinent to note that if you have simply a V chord (in a ii-V-I prog in C this would be G7), you can still use the whole tone scale of the Flat ii (in this case, Db) because the functioning tones of the G7 are the same as the ones for Db7(b5), just switched. This will make your typical dreary Dominant V chord sparkle with interest.

2) Application of the diminished scale: Once again this applies to dominant chords, yet there does not have to be any cadence or substitution. Whenever you have a V7 chord in a Major progression, you can use the diminished scale of the flat ii to solo over it. Again, let's break this down in terms of harmonic structure. Take the G7 chord in the key of C major.

The G7 chord is made of up G, B, D, and F, with B and F as the functioning tones. The Db (Flat ii of C Major) diminished scale is made up of Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, and B. Again, you can see that the functioning tones from the G7 chord are contained in the Db diminished scale. It's NO WONDER that any V chord can be substituted with it's flat ii

If you're in minor and you get a dominant V chord, just use the root note's diminished scale (i.e. a B7 in e minor could be improvised over using the E diminished scale)

3) When moving to a neighboring chord that's a step away, you can use the diminished scale of the note in between the two roots of the chords to create some RIDICULOUS tension and interest. i.e. if you have a IV-V-I progression in C major, and say you were following basic principle and going from F lydian to G Mixo, what you could do is before moving to G Mixo go from F lydian to F# diminished to G Mixo. This comes in complete handy when dealing with applied chords such as the I-V/ii-ii most often found in classical/prog music, or you may have heard it in Errol Garner's "Misty" at the tune's first cadence (in C, you would use the Db diminished scale when confronted with the A major chord, which sounds really nice especially with a quick switch).

I hope this has encouraged some of you to think outside the box when it comes to soloing, or at very least has given you some interesting ideas to work with! I'm always around to answer theory questions if you guys have any, from ones a lot more basic to some a lot more advanced than this. And as always, I HOPE THIS HELPED!

~Travis

LeBudfrumHull_SG · 05-04-2010, 04:17 PM

I think you and Clifford will be getting along just fine ...

gmcdougal · 05-04-2010, 04:22 PM

Hrm...when i put your post in the google translator..it failed to find the language.

traviskaufman · 05-04-2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcdougal

Hrm...when i put your post in the google translator..it failed to find the language.

LOL

I guess google doesn't know jazz theory?

I'll try and make it a bit more simple: If you have a V chord, use a diminished scale one fret above the fret where the root note is. If you have a chord that sounds like V chord but you can't really put your finger on it, use the whole tone scale one fret above where the root note is. If you have one chord going to another chord two frets above it, use the dimished scale of that fret in between the two frets (i.e. 7th fret root-6 chord going to 9th fret root-6 chord, use 8th fret root-6 diminished scale before you hit the 9th fret root-6 chord).

Does that help at all?

traviskaufman · 05-04-2010, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeBudfrumHull_SG

I think you and Clifford will be getting along just fine ...

Yo that guy is the man I read his post on how it's meaningless if you don't know theory and enjoyed it thoroughly.

Clifford D · 05-05-2010, 03:05 AM

[QUOTE=traviskaufman;109168] LOL

I guess google doesn't know jazz theory?

I'll try and make it a bit more simple:

thanks, I don't have to read so much

Quote:

Originally Posted by traviskaufman

If you have a V chord, use a diminished scale one fret above the fret where the root note is. If you have a chord that sounds like V chord but you can't really put your finger on it, use the whole tone scale one fret above where the root note is. If you have one chord going to another chord two frets above it, use the dimished scale of that fret in between the two frets (i.e. 7th fret root-6 chord going to 9th fret root-6 chord, use 8th fret root-6 diminished scale before you hit the 9th fret root-6 chord).
Does that help at all?

Hi TK
That's great stuff, but like the crew hinted at, this can easily go over heads. I just got done over at TGP reading like 15 pages of Kimock and JonR going at it over
3rds and 5ths, and if you ever thought something could be so scientific, facinating stuff, Kimock is the man. I'm sure that wonderful thread went over 99% of the viewers heads. Budda stuck his nose in the conversation, me too, but him and I take the position of student with Kimock and bowed back out to listen and learn. JonR is the perfect antagonist.
Check it out
Is the 13th partial of C "A" or "Ab"? - The Gear Page

Anyway, welcome, let's jam.

Ways to play out, so much fun

I dig the diminished thing as well, but instead of using it in a V to I
have checked it out simply over a static chord? Say A7?
This is a great way to play "out" on a one chord space jam like Cissy Strut
or a I IV in a blues

A7
|-------------5-8-5-6---5---------------5-|
|---------5-8---------7---8-7---5---------|
|-----5-7---------------------8---7-5-6---|
|---7-------------------------------------|
|-----------------------------------------|
|-----------------------------------------|

The wholetone scale exists within the dim1/2 wh scale however the wholetone by itself is much more angular than anything I would play with dim, hmm

well, my movie is starting

let's talk jazz, how about ATTYA?

traviskaufman · 05-06-2010, 12:10 AM

[QUOTE=Clifford D;109231]

Quote:

Originally Posted by traviskaufman

LOL

I guess google doesn't know jazz theory?

I'll try and make it a bit more simple:

thanks, I don't have to read so much

Hi TK
That's great stuff, but like the crew hinted at, this can easily go over heads. I just got done over at TGP reading like 15 pages of Kimock and JonR going at it over
3rds and 5ths, and if you ever thought something could be so scientific, facinating stuff, Kimock is the man. I'm sure that wonderful thread went over 99% of the viewers heads. Budda stuck his nose in the conversation, me too, but him and I take the position of student with Kimock and bowed back out to listen and learn. JonR is the perfect antagonist.
Check it out
Is the 13th partial of C "A" or "Ab"? - The Gear Page

Anyway, welcome, let's jam.

Ways to play out, so much fun

I dig the diminished thing as well, but instead of using it in a V to I
have checked it out simply over a static chord? Say A7?
This is a great way to play "out" on a one chord space jam like Cissy Strut
or a I IV in a blues

A7
|-------------5-8-5-6---5---------------5-|
|---------5-8---------7---8-7---5---------|
|-----5-7---------------------8---7-5-6---|
|---7-------------------------------------|
|-----------------------------------------|
|-----------------------------------------|

The wholetone scale exists within the dim1/2 wh scale however the wholetone by itself is much more angular than anything I would play with dim, hmm

well, my movie is starting

let's talk jazz, how about ATTYA?

Haha angularity is the complete goal whenever I play jazz and am trying to build tension. Stack all chords in 2nds and 4ths, play with as much dissonance as is appropriate, etc. The reason why I usually use the dim/WT's in a V going to one as opposed to just a regular chord is because you definitely can but I tend to move in and out of mixolydian/diminished/pentatonic just so there's more of a settled structure. However before resolving back to the tonic I want to create as much of a cliffhanger as humanly possible so I try to be extremely angular. But yeah it definitely sounds cool over a static chord as well.

HAHAHA The Gear page oh man I remember reading a conversation in their about peterson tuners and people claiming to hear a difference between that and the boss tuners. But like a good friend of mine says "I just look at what the people who are playing out all the time use."

As for the 13th partial of C, you're referring to the overtone series I think? If so, yeah I'm pretty sure it's an A. I synthesized a simple sine wave at medium velocity through MaxMSP and ran it through this frequency spectral analyzer called SPEAR (really cool program and free too; you can actually "draw in" your own frequencies over a tone and produce some super cool sonic effects) and it looks like an A. I just think that the wavelengths get so small up there that there's not a lot of breathing room, so if there's any type of vibrato or frequency oscillation at all the note will sound different.

I'm not sure what ATTYA means, but yeah I'd love to I'm trying to work on my ear training for jazz since I've had classical training pounded into my brain for so long haha.

Hardwired Flaws · 05-06-2010, 12:36 AM

I have a headache...

lol.

DigitalJedi · 05-06-2010, 09:12 PM

Dude, I just recently wrapped my head around pitch axis theory and have been able to apply that to my playing. Now I'm a modal maniac! Your post is intense. I am able to follow some of it, but there will be no application of any of this for me in the near future.

Props for being such a well educated musician. It's a personal goal of mine to have such a thorough understanding of many aspects of music theory. It seems as if you've already achieved that.

traviskaufman · 05-06-2010, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigitalJedi

Dude, I just recently wrapped my head around pitch axis theory and have been able to apply that to my playing. Now I'm a modal maniac! Your post is intense. I am able to follow some of it, but there will be no application of any of this for me in the near future.

Props for being such a well educated musician. It's a personal goal of mine to have such a thorough understanding of many aspects of music theory. It seems as if you've already achieved that.

Thanks dude! I go to school for music so they pretty much drill it into you haha

but if you want to really get into theory pick up the book "Scales and Modes in the Beginning" by Ron Middlebrook. That's what taught me a lot of the stuff I know...that and having really good teachers.

05-04-2010, 05:53 AM	#1 (permalink)
traviskaufman [Something Ambiguous] Join Date: May 2010 Location: New York, NY Posts: 46	Some advanced improv ideas for players bored with the norm What's up guys, I'm a bit of a theory freak, so I'd like to share some really cool tricks that some of you may now but will bring more interest to people who don't know them. The explanations are meant for people with a pretty solid background in theory (especially jazz theory) so if anything is unclear let me know and I will try to explain it differently. So with that being said I hope you guys find this useful, and hopefully it will encourage the learning of some exotic scales! 1) Practical application of the whole tone scale: I found that a really great use of the whole tone scale is in a ii-V-I progression where the V is substituted with the flat ii. For example, a simple progression with a tritone sub like Dm7-Db7(b5)-CMaj7. When you hit the Db7(b5), you can utilize the Db whole tone scale. How does this work? Well let's look at the Db whole-tone scale in context of the Db7(b5) chord. The Db7(b5) chord, as a stacked chord, contains the notes Db, F, Gb (Abb), and Cb (B natural), with the F and Cb (B natural), the 3rd and 7th, as the functioning tones. The Db whole-tone scale contains the notes Db, Eb, F, G, A, B (Cb). As you can see, the whole tone scale contains both functioning tones of the Db7(b5) chord, as well as the 9th, #11th, and #13th scale degrees, which creates some beautiful tension as your cadence resolves. It may be also pertinent to note that if you have simply a V chord (in a ii-V-I prog in C this would be G7), you can still use the whole tone scale of the Flat ii (in this case, Db) because the functioning tones of the G7 are the same as the ones for Db7(b5), just switched. This will make your typical dreary Dominant V chord sparkle with interest. 2) Application of the diminished scale: Once again this applies to dominant chords, yet there does not have to be any cadence or substitution. Whenever you have a V7 chord in a Major progression, you can use the diminished scale of the flat ii to solo over it. Again, let's break this down in terms of harmonic structure. Take the G7 chord in the key of C major. The G7 chord is made of up G, B, D, and F, with B and F as the functioning tones. The Db (Flat ii of C Major) diminished scale is made up of Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, and B. Again, you can see that the functioning tones from the G7 chord are contained in the Db diminished scale. It's NO WONDER that any V chord can be substituted with it's flat ii If you're in minor and you get a dominant V chord, just use the root note's diminished scale (i.e. a B7 in e minor could be improvised over using the E diminished scale) 3) When moving to a neighboring chord that's a step away, you can use the diminished scale of the note in between the two roots of the chords to create some RIDICULOUS tension and interest. i.e. if you have a IV-V-I progression in C major, and say you were following basic principle and going from F lydian to G Mixo, what you could do is before moving to G Mixo go from F lydian to F# diminished to G Mixo. This comes in complete handy when dealing with applied chords such as the I-V/ii-ii most often found in classical/prog music, or you may have heard it in Errol Garner's "Misty" at the tune's first cadence (in C, you would use the Db diminished scale when confronted with the A major chord, which sounds really nice especially with a quick switch). I hope this has encouraged some of you to think outside the box when it comes to soloing, or at very least has given you some interesting ideas to work with! I'm always around to answer theory questions if you guys have any, from ones a lot more basic to some a lot more advanced than this. And as always, I HOPE THIS HELPED! ~Travis __________________ http://www.unitedwetab.com/Musician/Travis-Kaufman/16 <3

05-04-2010, 04:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
LeBudfrumHull_SG Old Noob Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Gatineau, P.Q. Posts: 1,622	I think you and Clifford will be getting along just fine ... __________________ Are you suggesting coconuts migrate ? I drink to make other people interesting...

05-06-2010, 09:12 PM	#9 (permalink)
DigitalJedi Most Interestin Man Alive Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 524	Dude, I just recently wrapped my head around pitch axis theory and have been able to apply that to my playing. Now I'm a modal maniac! Your post is intense. I am able to follow some of it, but there will be no application of any of this for me in the near future. Props for being such a well educated musician. It's a personal goal of mine to have such a thorough understanding of many aspects of music theory. It seems as if you've already achieved that. __________________ If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Mod it instead! Music I've made: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...bandID=1050183 Live footage: http://www.youtube.com/user/joeygstrings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtQGFxi6o6M

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

05-04-2010, 04:22 PM	#3 (permalink)
gmcdougal Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 52	Hrm...when i put your post in the google translator..it failed to find the language.

05-06-2010, 12:36 AM	#8 (permalink)
Hardwired Flaws I know something. Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: California(LA) Posts: 5,959	I have a headache... lol.